tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post6814849590212196642..comments2024-03-08T18:49:51.289-05:00Comments on Classic Film and TV Café: 3 on 3: Gangster FilmsRick29http://www.blogger.com/profile/08358116647815569722noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-44448543667634992822011-08-13T14:45:56.261-04:002011-08-13T14:45:56.261-04:00Somw great comments here and I want to thank every...Somw great comments here and I want to thank everyone for the lively discussion. I also want to thank Rick for hosting this and look forward to what is coming next in this series.<br /><br />JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-71817162016980085212011-08-12T23:04:16.177-04:002011-08-12T23:04:16.177-04:00Dorian, those are great stories! You should do a ...Dorian, those are great stories! You should do a piece on your own blog about that!ClassicBeckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591715859057540467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-655128004050121292011-08-12T21:39:58.367-04:002011-08-12T21:39:58.367-04:00Rick, John, Becky, R.D., I thoroughly enjoyed your...Rick, John, Becky, R.D., I thoroughly enjoyed your fascinating, in-depth "3 By 3" discussion of gangster films, then and now. My late dad was a restaurant manager who also happened to be a bookie on the side. Of course, Dad wasn't a gangster of any stripe, he just happened to rub elbows with them on his work time. Dad was more the Damon Runyon type than the Mario Puzo type. :-) <br /><br />Two gangster-movie-related anecdotes come to mind:<br /><br />1.) When THE GODFATHER was shown on network television for the first time, we were watching it. Dad came into the living room and peered at the screen for several minutes. Finally, he snorted, "That's a lotta malarkey!" and left the room.<br /><br />2.) When I was in my tweens, our family went to Las Vegas for a vacation and visited old friends of Dad's. Our host was a gent named Jasper, who know many of the same colorful characters I've just mentioned. Among other fun Vegas-y things, we went to see CASINO, which was based on a true story -- and one of the characters was based on Jasper. Mom and my sister Cara and I had great fun afterwards figuring out which characters were fact-based! :-)DorianTBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01357778472575080022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-36189437302725957222011-08-11T19:08:08.154-04:002011-08-11T19:08:08.154-04:00I enjoyed everyone's interesting and thoughtfu...I enjoyed everyone's interesting and thoughtful comments very much. These 3/3 debates are a great idea, Rick. John and R.D., we have a few differences in opinion, very few really, and I've never had so much fun conversing with 2 other experts without any contact at all! LOL!ClassicBeckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591715859057540467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-69726932607956468642011-08-11T18:07:00.042-04:002011-08-11T18:07:00.042-04:00I also agree that the gangster genre is still goin...I also agree that the gangster genre is still going strong, so strong in fact I sometimes wonder if we all ought to be a little worried by how thoroughly it took the place of the Western in America's self-conception (as projected through the movies and TV).<br /><br />However, while I also agree the Godfathers are two of the greatest films ever made, I don't think they're "perfect". There was considerable room for improvement, especially in Godfather II. First and foremost, I'll never forgive actor Richard Castellano for demanding an outrageous increase in salary after the success of Godfather I, thereby forcing Coppola to replace Clemenza with a character we'd never seen before. Imagine the increased emotional impact if everything that happened to this "stranger", Frankie Pentangelli, happened instead to a character we were deeply invested in from the first film! <br /><br />[SPOILER ALERT FOR THE SIX PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN IT] <br />Secondly, I find the sequence in which Pentangelli is set up by Hyman Roth extremely confusing. How on earth was it supposed to work? Did the people in on the setup know they were likely to get killed as it unfolded? One of them was a cop, for crying out loud! Maybe not a real cop, I suppose… but who knows!?<br /><br />Finally… damn it, Brando!! Coppola singlehandedly resurrects your career, allowing you to charge two gazillion dollars for five minutes of screen time in Superman, etc etc…and you won't deign to show up in the last five minutes of his movie, thereby not allowing a strong final sequence to become a mind-bogglingly great final sequence? Shame.Olden Bittermenschnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-30246722717787948002011-08-10T23:34:45.592-04:002011-08-10T23:34:45.592-04:00I agree with R. D. Finch. I think that the modern ...I agree with R. D. Finch. I think that the modern gangster genre has morphed into a different animal but it's still going strong. That's true here and abroad as one commenter noted. However, John Greco noted astutely that the long form of television lends itself well to the genre as evidenced by "Crime Story" in the late 19980's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-59885142320771708272011-08-10T12:19:11.243-04:002011-08-10T12:19:11.243-04:00This was a very interesting 3 on 3 post. John, Bec...This was a very interesting 3 on 3 post. John, Becky, and R. D. have more similar, rather than divergent, perspectives and their essays are all informative and expertly written. Perhaps the Depression did permit the gangster film to seem more acceptable. Personally, I can't watch violent films any more. There is so much unrest in the world today that it is hard enough just trying to make it through the news. But I think this is a thought-provoking blog and appreciate all the interesting comments.toto2https://www.blogger.com/profile/09652682900471649463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-70719123547002578892011-08-10T11:37:07.129-04:002011-08-10T11:37:07.129-04:00Just a little aside to John and R.D. as 1/3 of the...Just a little aside to John and R.D. as 1/3 of the 3/3! -- I think it's just fascinating that each of us chose a different one of the original Big 3! Interesting! I plan to and am interested in talking more about all the comments after the discussion is completed.!ClassicBeckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591715859057540467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-74298141345828376582011-08-09T20:49:24.231-04:002011-08-09T20:49:24.231-04:00Caftan Woman, that's an interesting observatio...Caftan Woman, that's an interesting observation about the mythologizing of gangsters in real life and on the silver screen. Yet, I think that occurred even with a core of contemporary society in the 1930s. I wasn't around then, but know that my father was a Dillinger fan. He was fully aware that Dillinger was a criminal, but admired the gangster's style (for lack of a better word), which was enhanced by the national media and perhaps the need for Depression-era heroes. Sark, the growth of the gangster genre in other countries would make a fascinating essay. I can see the parallels between the warring factions portrayed in some samurai films and the gangs of American gangster movies. The growth of French film gangsters (influenced very much by American cinema) and the British variations (e.g., THE LONG GOOD FRIDAY) would also be interesting to explore in depth. John, I neglected to mention that I really like how you differentiated between urban gangster films and rural contemporary outlaw films. They are two very different kinds of films, yet both fit into the gangster genre.Rick29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08358116647815569722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-19891363527818881102011-08-09T10:59:00.143-04:002011-08-09T10:59:00.143-04:00It could be, w/the success of The Sopranos & B...It could be, w/the success of The Sopranos & Boardwalk Empire, that the gangster genre hasn't died, but only moved to the episodic tv format, which allows for a more leisurely, complex telling of story, as well as an exploration of not only motive and character, but the progression of the gangster tribe as 'family' (Coppola redesigning his Godfather I and II films into a tv 'saga' seemed to point the way). Excellent, insightful post.Grand Old Movieshttp://grandoldmovies.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-50835771802642025982011-08-09T09:50:37.390-04:002011-08-09T09:50:37.390-04:00Technically, the yakuza film genre in Japan is als...Technically, the yakuza film genre in Japan is also part of gangster films. There is a seemingly endless list of those movies, from directors such as Seijun Suzuki and Kinji Fukasaku, and they're still being made today by the likes of Takashi Miike and Takeshi Kitano. None of these movies seem influenced by U.S. gangster films, as they take more from Kurosawa (the earliest yakuza films had men with swords) and were shaped more by real world events, such as the aftermath of WWII, than earlier films.<br /><br />Also, I agree with R.D. about how the genre has adapted to the times. We aren't the same viewers from 80 years ago, who weren't fully aware of the sheer violence required for the Mob to function outside of the law. And why is the violence in current films criticized more than in the 1930s? These are movies about criminals, who murder and beat and steal. You can't praise films of yesteryear for hinting at violence and then condemn films of today for stylizing it. It's a similar approach: inclusion of violence in a roundabout way, so as to generate sympathy for those dispatching said violence. And GOODFELLAS, which presents violence in a more direct manner, offers the moral dilemma for an audience: should it or should it not feel for a violent criminal? Don't negate our cinematic gangsters of today because the results of their behavior are more bloody; they're the same people as the characters from the '30s armed with Tommy guns.sarkoffagushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00922698736476674377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-72153960761176167842011-08-09T09:47:44.269-04:002011-08-09T09:47:44.269-04:00I thought this was a fascinating discussion and I ...I thought this was a fascinating discussion and I certainly can't argue with the "Big 3" as the most influential gangster films of the 1930s. However, if I could add a fourth, it'd be ANGELS WITH DIRTY FACES (which John mentioned) because Cagney's gangster possesses redeeming qualities that separate him from the vicious tough guys that preceded him. That set the stage for later films like HIGH SIERRA. As for THE GODFATHER films, the first two work for me because they focus on "family" drama and politics whereas many films in the gangster genre key on how and why an individual became a gangster (which is still a key component of GODFATHER PART II). By the way, I have seen THE GODFATHER SAGA and quite enjoyed watching the GODATHER and GODAFTHER II plots in chronological order. The third question posed is problematic because, as R.D. Finch points out, it depends one's definition of a "gangster film." For me, the traditional gangster film is the type mentioned earlier where the emphasis on how and why an individual turned to a life of crime. It seems like contemporary gangster dramas often ignore that aspect in lieu of more straightforward character studies, such as THE SOPRANOS TV series and CASINO. Like Becky said, today's blockbuster films focus on mass entertainment and that has relegated gangster films to "specialists" like Scorsese or De Palma.Rick29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08358116647815569722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5344878851139332715.post-10001137933587074832011-08-09T08:51:33.908-04:002011-08-09T08:51:33.908-04:00Love starting my day with coffee & Tommy guns....Love starting my day with coffee & Tommy guns. I recently re-read Classic Becky's series on gangster films from earlier in the year. I think that AMC "thon" is getting to me.<br /><br />Very interesting discussion. Those classic films have been viewed so often that the perspective of others is needed to return the movies to their glorious originality.<br /><br />Tough times make for tough people, and the distance of time lends itself to mythologizing the characters. Emotionally, I can't look at the criminals in movies set in my time with that same understanding and detachment. Will future audiences feel that way about the 21st century gangster?Caftan Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05936895555808823221noreply@blogger.com